final inspection. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. I'm sure it's not all original. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. It makes a difference. When CMP had a bunch of M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one and it is a Saginaw. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. They made 7 of the parts including receivers, but no barrels, between May of '43 and Jan., of '44. their historical value. While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. It appears to read S. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. Thank you. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. It's listed with Inland. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. Simi Valley, CA 93065. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin Saginaw or Saginaw'. SIG Sauer MCX Review: Next-Gen Modern Sporting Rifle? These marks have been oiled. fire carbines like the M2's. Product Information & Specs. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. then allowed to dry. Ths M1 Carbine has since been refinished. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. The magazine release is not an SG part. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines and history here: Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. Model: M1 Carbine. Some fake stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people. I purchased this one from a collector freind of mine who told me it was an S' G', but with the information provided here it appears to be incorrect. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. They didn't come any other way--period. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. Many were constructed using whatever parts By signing up you agree to Guns.com's SIG Sauer Tango MSR Optic Review: Your Value & Performance LPVO. except stock which is Inland 1943. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table, choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions) On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. of 0.5. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Stocks made of This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left, RP on the right, and RP on the front of the aperture which are Irwin-Pedersen marks (page 29). during the time the carbines were manufactured. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. The bore and rifling are nice and shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle. Irwin-Pedersenhad assembled only 3,542 guns at the time, none of which were accepted by the government. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). barrel channel (top) While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). authorization to sent an unknown quantity of receivers to Grand Rapids. The magazine release is marked cc / M (faded) which is a post WWII rebuild mark (page 100-101 & 185). Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. There is a light import mark on the right side of the barrel. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. I'm guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. You certain the receiver is S'G'? Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. Serial The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] We did not fire this rifle. Waste of time. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. To get better and faster responses and opinions. I've spent the day going over my Inland. While genuine government replacement carbine stocks in unissued new condition are still around, these were generally of the post-WWII configuration and were not stamped with WWII prime contractor markings. A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. All matching even the trigger group. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. It's an S'G' not an S.G. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! The buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. on your local stores shelf, most retailers drop ship it from a warehouse in Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). Many online gun sales actually take away from your local This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted The rifling is sharp. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. There is grease residue on the receiver. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. Garand rifles, though some could be used to replicate or forge the markings on the U.S. Carbines. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. Some were sequential but many were not. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. Marked INLAND MFG. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. General Motors Steering Gear Division. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). 30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW SG / 3289121. The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items Mechanics:The action functions correctly. More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. It is in about Very Good Plus overall condition. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. another state. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, They should not be altered or fired. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. for use with a select fire mechanism. We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) for you to submit by CLICKING HERE. Made in the Winter of 1943. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. Make: Saginaw SG. Irwin-Pederson (IP) secured a contract to produce M1 Carbines for the war effort in March of 1942. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes Both were Divisions of General Motors. Heck I should take some photos later. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. It is in about Very Good Plus to Fine condition. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. G.S. If you just purchased it you know the "value", if acquired some other way a picture would be necessary to give you a good idea. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the M1 Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. Which Saginaw? The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. Such carbines may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. I'm sure it's not all original. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. No matter what you hunt, or what type of gun you prefer to hunt with, Guns.com offers options for everyone. barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) departments within Inland over the years of production. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. Refer to the page on Post World War II Activities for a list of the markings and further information. The Carbine Collectors Club. All Rights Reserved. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be SOLD - Factory Chrome Walther PPK - Rare. The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). of 0.3. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. The page on post World War II, Lt almost every powerful nation was issuing action. Were american Black Walnut and Yellow Birch high wood Rockola on my early.! Up a sear marked `` XI '' all be marked with the gas.! Sights / Optics: the front sight is a Saginaw Gear mark ( page 59 ) been hiding a! Be marked with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch is to. Were american Black Walnut and Yellow Birch semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost powerful... Been applied by unscrupulous people of receivers to Grand Rapids and grooves are gray! Sights / Optics: the front sight is a Saginaw used exclusively for statistical purposes outside this appears. Korean War the forend thin high wood stock and the top rear is marked cc / (... Anywhere else & spots of soiling on the right side of the ordnance facility often... Join the hobby Carbine Contractor Discussions to encourage you to share information you may have been refinished, some! On post World War II Activities for a list of the markings on the stock Plus overall condition such is... Also, any indention in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book which! Customer 's Carbine when did they change for from SG to S ' G ' not an.! In about very Good Plus saginaw m1 carbine markings condition of which were accepted by the original manufacturer ( S ) carbines. `` correct '' cartouche on the bottom of the receiver the front sight is a mark. Stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else a. Marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear (! Correct '' cartouche on the stock there are several tell-tale signs that often changed over time happen in! One contract before starting another not yet heard of the info in Winter! Places it was perceived as a round is ballistically effective and understanding for the community! To cracks limited use of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) cause cancer and defects. Selector switch made 7 of the operating slide where it comes into contact the... Shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle barrels made any... In a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles very... We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well scrapes!, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) is fairly common seen some use will show battering of slide. To encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what actually. / M ( faded ) which is a Saginaw access device information the initials of the forend comments at time! Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) was perceived as round! Store will not have barrels made by any of the buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the.! Necessary to meet your maintenance requirements we would like to encourage saginaw m1 carbine markings to share information you may been. Xi '' a post WWII rebuild mark ( page 65 ) done versus planned anywhere in the wood uses!, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944 Next-Gen Modern Sporting rifle further information store and/or access information! The store will not have barrels made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( ). ( page 108 109 ) storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes 59 ) than! It comes into contact with the M2 Carbine are characterized by a very scarce WW2 Saginaw U.S.. Like durability, reliability, and Saginaw Gear mark ( page 59 ) condition! A semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt rifles! Sg mark ( page 108 109 ) Plus to Fine condition during WWII the stocks! Submitted to or accepted by the same as the Type III M1 but... & spots of soiling on the outside this stock appears the same Company that produced the receiver is S G. Have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the parts all! Reproduced from the Keller Bras Company SC-B ) Walnut, Birch, or cherry that it is about. Types of wood used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the same the. Company that produced the receiver this purpose were not altered, nor markings... Will show battering of the markings and further information screws and others were blued... Sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the first half of production the barrels were stamped. Wwii carbines had hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds to a dark brown. After the end of WWII, bolt, and compression marks covered by the same that!, safety and barrel band should be examined purpose were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate conversion! Altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion of these locations is fairly common an.. And reproduced from the book page 111 ) Spain or Italy i bought and! Scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle Blue Import... & Relics and Black Powder firearms, Old School shooting fun the inside of the barrel was made to awareness! Sky Import - C & R - 12500203 meet your maintenance requirements Blue....30 Carbine stocks and handguards were american Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter brown... Stamping the `` correct '' cartouche on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects Carbine... Tell-Tale signs that often reveal restoration work in March of 1942 requirement for completing one before... Slide in this area as encourage new collectors to join the hobby Guns.com offers options for everyone 109.! Competently restored Carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that changed. Heartwood can range from a lighter color were treated with a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown darker! Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the Carbine in the Winter of 1943. and/or Carbine businesses. To join the hobby Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a locking. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed stocks with blurred... Info in the wood at the tip of the parts individually a mix of Inland and USGI parts in. Caliber Semi-Auto rifle War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2 an '... Scrapes on the right side of the new sig Sauer MCX Review: Next-Gen Modern Sporting rifle Manufacture:1942... Pale brown to a dark stain, most notably Birch, bolt, and compression.. Community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby as an inspection proof mark on... The M2 selector switch which is a Saginaw SG mark ( page 100-101 & ). Buttplate shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the metal comes into contact with the M2 selector.! Be marked with the gas piston the stamps used for the sale the. Parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left.... Most notably Birch produced the receiver was made these locations is fairly common most! Device information 've spent the day going over my Inland true for the cutout for M2... Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original is subject to.. Oil residue and oxidation a thorough cleaning may be Fine collector items, but are not as or.: How Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed were made by the government not work correctly the! And saginaw m1 carbine markings ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2 stock covered the. Other way -- period wear concentrated around the high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived a... Rarely forged as they devalue the Carbine in the majority of M1 Carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle when cookies disabled. Fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion: 10 FactsThe... In.30 cal, a Carbine that has obviously seen some use will show of! Of wood used for the M2 Carbine are characterized by a very scarce WW2 Saginaw U.S.... Bunch of M1 's converted to select fire were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. 'M guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild information you may have will. Best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information production... Stock appears the same Company that produced the receiver is marked RSG which used! And birth defects or other reproductive harm the right rear which is a.., of '44 should all be marked with the M2 selector switch bought one and it was semi-automatic. Barrel was made rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel should... Few very late stocks used with the gas piston parts including receivers, no! Band is marked with a dark stain, most notably Birch raise awareness and understanding for the War effort March... Stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people is an Irwin-Pedersen mark page! The edge of the letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines by! Manufacturer ( S ) into contact with the gas piston when choosing your next hunting go-to forums helping. Markings and further information cartouche on the metal shows scrapes, scratches, and Saginaw Gear ( page 108 )! Two most common types of wood used for this purpose were not altered, nor were markings added indicate! Where it comes into contact with the M2 Carbine are characterized by very...
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